tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post5381344910351352420..comments2024-03-28T19:14:33.619-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: Whether to Take Peter Singer to McDonaldsEric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-79433525456263848752016-05-27T03:25:51.144-07:002016-05-27T03:25:51.144-07:00But I'm *pretty* sure that donating to you wou...<i>But I'm *pretty* sure that donating to you would not maximize global happiness!</i><br /><br />Can you take that chance, Eric!? The whole worlds happyness hinges upon your choice - how can you be certain!?<br /><br />Besides, couldn't you say that about any charity? Isn't that the easier thing to say?Callan S.http://philosophergamer.blogspot.com.au/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-72639807823602039532016-05-25T11:52:39.294-07:002016-05-25T11:52:39.294-07:00Callan: It's hard to weigh all these things --...Callan: It's hard to weigh all these things -- one of the great difficulties of act utilitarianism. But I'm *pretty* sure that donating to you would not maximize global happiness!<br /><br />Nicolas: Right, I'm not really aiming to box Singer into some kind of inconsistent position. But it is kind of an interesting practical question, considering him as a visiting speaker -- and the situation is not *so* abstract. After all, my hosts *did* end up taking Singer to the expensive restaurant!Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-47090521583491791702016-05-24T07:08:35.788-07:002016-05-24T07:08:35.788-07:00Interesting case!
IF these were the only availabl...Interesting case!<br /><br />IF these were the only available options AND your estimates were correct (including if we could also rule out that the damaging side-effects of his conduct), THEN Singer would most likely choose McDonalds. But it would be inconsistent only if Singer was not a utilitarian. I mean, insofar as he is okay with killing newborns in some circumstances, there are worst things he would agree to do than eat one burger to save a life. Anyone pointing to inconsistency would be missing the point. It's also well known (including from Singer himself) that Singer is a quite flexible vegetarian.<br /><br />Now, the situation you describe is too abstract and constrained to be likely to happen to real life Singer, but if it did, then Singer would be in a better position to defend himself than, say, Gary Francione.<br /><br />All that being said, I also think the improvised vegan meal would be the best option, if available. If not available, then shift the burden of using money optimally onto the department, not Singer.Nicolas Delonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-6287003806315641712016-05-22T03:08:14.352-07:002016-05-22T03:08:14.352-07:00Well how about this - what if McDonalds was holdin...Well how about this - what if McDonalds was holding a gun to someones head so if you don't eat there and donate that money to save a life, then bang.<br /><br />While the Buddhist restaurant, in it's good farming practices, slowly improves peoples lives, with an effect that slowly but surely reaches those who's lives are threatened by starvation and desease.<br /><br />Clearly McDonalds is the badguy in that case - it's not even about the choice anymore it's about changing the subject to stopping their villainy.<br /><br />But really how much does McDonalds improve anyones life? As in deliberately so (and thus reliably so into the future)? So it is kind of the case. You might be donating the money and saving someone, but only by helping those who do not help others. Is there a cost in that that outweighs the short term benefit? Maybe if one keeps feeding devils and donating the saved money, one will always have to keep donating that money (for having fed a devil)?<br /><br />Now donate the money to me! >:)Callan S.http://philosophergamer.blogspot.com.au/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-74950789589932396512016-05-20T12:35:25.522-07:002016-05-20T12:35:25.522-07:00That seems right, David. I was assuming an artifi...That seems right, David. I was assuming an artificial set-up in which the expensive vegetarian place and McDonalds were the only options. I am kind of curious how Singer approaches the issue of dinners as a visiting speaker. It is possible that something like Richard's view is right and charity is rarely a realistic option, so that Singer sees the transfer of a substantial sum of money from a philosophy department to a vegetarian restaurant as a net benefit.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-12514647152989730262016-05-19T07:23:55.806-07:002016-05-19T07:23:55.806-07:00Even if you have a department willing to donate th...Even if you have a department willing to donate the savings to charity, McDonald's would still be the wrong choice by Singerian lights, I'd think. It would be better to have everyone over to a faculty member's house, or to the department lounge, or someplace else on campus, and provide a very simple vegan meal like rice and steamed veggies. Cheaper than McDonald's, better for you, and steer-free.David Killorennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-85253317807049252902016-05-18T08:35:07.506-07:002016-05-18T08:35:07.506-07:00Fair point, Richard! It will surely depend on the...Fair point, Richard! It will surely depend on the willingness of an administrator somewhere to be creative and flexible.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-7571547062859018182016-05-18T02:40:08.342-07:002016-05-18T02:40:08.342-07:00I agree with all this in theory, but alas in pract...I agree with all this in theory, but alas in practice academic departments aren't set up (or, probably, willing) to donate their savings to charity, so Singer might reasonably conclude that a fancy meal is the best <i>feasible</i> use of the money that is in this particular 'pot'.Richard Y Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16725218276285291235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-26006618161145676002016-05-17T21:44:52.389-07:002016-05-17T21:44:52.389-07:00Thanks for the comments, folks! Robert, I appreci...Thanks for the comments, folks! Robert, I appreciate the link. Interesting reasoning there,<br /><br />Daniel: I've heard numbers ranging as low as a few hundred up to a few thousand, so that's why I used "ballpark" language. I have no grounds to dispute GiveWell. It doesn't really make a difference to my argument, though. I'll update to be clearer.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-34362508650138603532016-05-17T20:36:31.768-07:002016-05-17T20:36:31.768-07:00For more details on GiveWell's cost-effectiven...For more details on GiveWell's cost-effectiveness calculations, see http://www.givewell.org/international/technical/criteria/cost-effectivenessDaniel Filannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-72843750035446685582016-05-17T20:35:09.832-07:002016-05-17T20:35:09.832-07:00Why do you think you can save a live for US$360? I...Why do you think you can save a live for US$360? I'm pretty impressed by the organisation GiveWell, that tries to quantify which charities are best at alleviating third world poverty, and they think that it takes on the order of US$3000 to save a life. See http://www.givewell.org/giving101/Your-dollar-goes-further-overseasDaniel Filannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-78477815155531636432016-05-17T20:31:50.184-07:002016-05-17T20:31:50.184-07:00Hi Eric,
Interesting post! I do think that, as yo...Hi Eric,<br /><br />Interesting post! I do think that, as you suggest, there is a fair amount of effective altruist thinking on this issue. For instance, the following piece by Katja Grace--she seems to share your basic instinct about tradeoffs:<br /><br />http://effective-altruism.com/ea/ba/when_should_an_effective_altruist_be_vegetarian/<br /><br />"For instance, if instead of eating vegetarian you ate a bit frugally and saved and donated a few dollars per meal, you would probably do more good (see calculations lower in this post)."<br /><br />Robert Longhttp://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/object/RobertLong.htmlnoreply@blogger.com