tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post114744476943680473..comments2024-03-28T19:14:33.619-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: Why Do the Good Guys Always Win in Morality Tales?Eric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-49102639218637316842016-04-04T12:46:35.797-07:002016-04-04T12:46:35.797-07:00Outside of tales and folklore in "the real wo...Outside of tales and folklore in "the real world" winners seem to be granted status as virtuous by default of them "winning". History is written by the winners, and their fight whatever it may be, can be assigned virtuous points. Truth is, winning and losing have almost nothing to do with being virtuous,(Dropping the atomic bomb, wiping out the indigenous North American population, lance Armstrong) We lie to ourselves in folk tales because we want to believe that virtuosity pays, unfortunately in modern society it doesn't.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01524852471586766607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-53817686593479824602013-12-19T11:01:57.926-08:002013-12-19T11:01:57.926-08:00In the Old Testament the "good guys" don...In the Old Testament the "good guys" don't really "win into the end". They get sent into horrible exile full of persecution culminating in the Nazi's.<br /><br />When they do eventually half-return to the promised land the whole plan turns out to be a flop, nobody can agree on anything, and the whole world still hates them and wishes to annihilation them.<br /><br />Now how's that for a Morality Tale for western civilization!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-11107910214945036122012-04-19T20:24:16.695-07:002012-04-19T20:24:16.695-07:00Thanks for your thoughts, Anon. I do keep tabs on...Thanks for your thoughts, Anon. I do keep tabs on these old posts!<br /><br />It would be nice if we could also learn not only that virtue often doesn't pay in a material manner, as you say, but often that it doesn't pay socially either (assuming that's true). How do you teach that through fiction without seeming to undercut the message? By portraying the protagonist as inwardly satisfied? That seems subtle. Also: What if even inward satisfaction doesn't follow....Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-51372369857494919872012-04-19T11:36:55.103-07:002012-04-19T11:36:55.103-07:00'Work in social psychology suggests that if on...'Work in social psychology suggests that if one too blatantly rewards good behavior that can sometimes have the paradoxical effect of making the child value it less -- she comes to think of it as a means to a reward rather than valuable for its own sake and is less likely to do it when no reward is offered.'<br /><br />In this case it's possible to argue that 'virtue' is always rewarded with some sort of social validation. If virtue is always rewarded then it shouldn't necesserily follow that the number of virtous acts a person commits will decrease outside of these parameters. The question then becomes 'How important is it that a person act morally for the sake of the act itself rather than for a promised reward?' The result is surely the same.<br /><br />The marketing analogy makes a great deal of sense if you suppose that the purpose of these tales is to encourage a certain behaviour by associating it with the desireable state.<br /><br />The analogy about gambling also raises an interesting point. That the association with large payouts will increase motivation to gamble seems to follow logically. The point it raised for me is related to 'teaching children that if virtue doesn't pay, <b> it isn't really virtue. </b>' Well in relation to our gambling analogy the gambler who finds himself loosing, as he will, learns that gambling doesn't pay. He does not change the way he identifies gambling as only those activities which do pay so that when he wins it's gambling and when he loses he assumes he's engaging in some other activity. Surely the danger is not that people change what they think of as virtuous acts but only realise that virtue does not pay in a material manner.<br /><br />I don't even know if that makes any sense and I'm resurecting a long dead discussion by hey-ho.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1147970205198850162006-05-18T09:36:00.000-07:002006-05-18T09:36:00.000-07:00Yes. I agree with that completely!Here's the worr...Yes. I agree with that completely!<BR/><BR/>Here's the worry, then (or one worry). If every cool cartoon character smokes, then kids might conclude that if you don't smoke you're not cool. What, then, will kids conclude if every morally good decision is portrayed as leading to material benefits? Maybe, as you say, there's no serious risk of simply <I> identifying </I> the moral with what happens to pay, but mightn't there be some subtler consequence -- such as an increase in "just-world thinking"?<BR/><BR/>("Just-world thinking" is the phenomenon noted by social psychologists for people to tend to assume -- even when it's clearly irrational to do so [because, for example, the success is demonstrably due to chance] -- that successful, wealthy, etc., people are morally better, smarter, etc., than those who are unsuccessful. Such thinking can lead to devaluing the poor, the oppressed, minority groups, etc.)Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1147921238266227912006-05-17T20:00:00.000-07:002006-05-17T20:00:00.000-07:00However the psychological mechanisms work, it seem...However the psychological mechanisms work, it seems pretty likely that repeated observations of even fictional correlations between some behavior and success will generate some motivation for that behavior.<BR/><BR/>This is the same tendency that makes cool cartoon characters who smoke dangerous for children.Jonathan Jenkins Ichikawahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05260245860017778409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1147795611726849142006-05-16T09:06:00.000-07:002006-05-16T09:06:00.000-07:00I don't know, Jonathan. I think it's complicated....I don't know, Jonathan. I think it's complicated. For one thing, in telling a story, one is not <I> reinforcing </I> virtue in the standard psychological sense of rewarding a virtuous act. One is instead creating a certain mythology around virtue, or certain assocations or expectations or something like that. But surely there is something like an "I want to be like him" effect, in which the reasons for being like him and the relevant features of him (e.g., fortunate, moral, admired, happy) rather blur together.<BR/><BR/>Another thought about "reinforcement" in the standard psychological sense: Work in social psychology suggests that if one too blatantly rewards good behavior that can sometimes have the paradoxical effect of making the child value it less -- she comes to think of it as a means to a reward rather than valuable for its own sake and is less likely to do it when no reward is offered.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1147731322473041832006-05-15T15:15:00.000-07:002006-05-15T15:15:00.000-07:00Well, Plato had quite a bit to say about this, did...Well, Plato had quite a bit to say about this, didn't he? I guess the theory is something like, we should positively reinforce virtue, and one way to do that is to give the impression that virtue pays.<BR/><BR/>It's pretty plausible that this would work, as a psychological motivation. (I don't think there's a serious risk of the public _identifying_ virtue with "whatever it is that happens to pay.)<BR/><BR/>Suppose we had a media which consistently portrayed gamblers as big winners. (Maybe we do? I'm not sure.) This seems likely to cause an increased motivation to gamble.Jonathan Jenkins Ichikawahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05260245860017778409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1147477840883439862006-05-12T16:50:00.000-07:002006-05-12T16:50:00.000-07:00Interesting thoughts, again, Brad! Yes, I agree t...Interesting thoughts, again, Brad! Yes, I agree that the issue arises in theology with the idea that virtue pays in the afterlife. However, I'd complicate that idea with the concern that maybe many fewer people believe in the afterlife than *say* they do. (I might write about that in a post next week.)<BR/><BR/>And, yes, I agree with your take on Zhuangzi as well. He breaks all the rules! That's partly why he's so darn fun to read.<BR/><BR/>Your third point appeals to me also. I hadn't formulated it to myself in quite that way, I think. The analogy to beer commercials is great! Another thought is the bait-and-switch. If you can get people to start doing positive things for *any* reason, even an extrinsic and selfish one, once they actually start doing those things their motivations start to change and they can become more intrinsically and laudably motivated.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1147455343930647942006-05-12T10:35:00.000-07:002006-05-12T10:35:00.000-07:00I think this is a very interesting issue. I have ...I think this is a very interesting issue. I have three comments, the first two of which draw attention to other genres of stories. <BR/><BR/>First, there are the "virtue does NOT pay in worldy happiness, but pays off later" stories. Here the new testament and christian martyr stories are the case in point, although eastern thought has parallels that make use of the idea of karmic influenced rebirth. Your worries about the value of these stories is similar to recent debates about the need or prudence of Buddhists retaining a belief in karamic rebirth.<BR/><BR/>Second, there are stories such as those of Chuang Tzu, which "glamorize" people and traits which are not useful. One way of reading these is that they depict virtue as being good in part because it does not lead to social-material success.<BR/><BR/>Third, one suggestion about the value of stories that yoke success to virtue. Plato would argue that our affects - esp our tendency to feel pleause at the thought of certain types of characters - are trained by our engagement with literature (or plays) at a young age. Maybe reading these stories helps trains us to have good feelings associated with good characters in a way similar to how advertisers aim to yoke our pleasures to their products (they put the bikini clad women and the beer in same comercial for that reason, not because they think we will come to believe drinking that beer will get us those kinds of women) This thought could be naturally developed by a discussion of internalized shame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com