tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post5751050577657350520..comments2024-03-25T11:49:21.281-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: The Parable of the Overconfident Student -- and Why Academic Philosophy Still Favors the Socially PrivilegedEric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-13192144511269094012022-03-29T07:25:57.747-07:002022-03-29T07:25:57.747-07:00Anon Mar 28: Yes, this makes sense to me! It soun...Anon Mar 28: Yes, this makes sense to me! It sounds like you’re already doing the things I recommend in my follow up post. Great!Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-87870323487742106732022-03-28T23:43:01.725-07:002022-03-28T23:43:01.725-07:00I think there are students as you describe, but it...I think there are students as you describe, but its also likely that you are on occasion mixing this students in with those who are genuinley passionate about verbally explaining and engaing with the material without necessarily being interested in competition or appearances. I'm probably one of the students you are referring to, and while I come from a fairly priviliged background, I am by no means 'overconfident', especially seeing as I need two beta blockers to speak publicly without having a panic attack. I am also a woman and ethnic minority. <br /><br />I love philosophy, and I know that my career opportunities after uni are not great. So naturally I am determined to learn and do as best as I can at school, and I have found that asking questions and having conversations is a great method for improving at philosophy (or is it just me?). I don't argue, I don't think I can devise a novel refutation of Descartes, or even my prof, at my 11:00 Early Modern lecture. I also don't see it as much of a competition, in the way that poli-sci classes filled with law school hopefuls can be. I just like having class discussions where I can ask my teachers and classmates questions, because I prefer treating philosophy as a collaborative intellectual effort. (covid was hard, as you can imagine.)<br /><br />So I'm not particularly overconfident, nor do I harm other students in the sense that I am trying to intellectually 'out-do' them. Although I'll grant that students with a natural aversion to class discussion, and/or who just don't like philosophy as much as I do, probably find it abnoxious or intimidating, as some of your commenters do.<br /><br />Is the fact that I love philosophy a product of privilege? In some respects, probably. But I am not a good philosopher merely because I have put my "irrational overconfidence" to good use. I think that when you come across students who like piping up in class, you can assume that at least a few of them are simply doing it because they are passionate about the same things you are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-75497329643750395642022-03-24T10:37:48.380-07:002022-03-24T10:37:48.380-07:00Thanks for the continuing comments, folks, and sor...Thanks for the continuing comments, folks, and sorry for my slow reply!<br /><br />Anon Mar 16: Yes, both of your observations seem right to me.<br /><br />Jake: It seems likely that one can be harmed by extreme overconfidence in these context. There's probably a sweet spot of some overconfidence but not too much. I'd disagree that confidence and ability are anticorrelated though. My estimate is that there's a positive correlation in the sense that the more advanced, committed, and knowledgeable students also tend, on average, to be the more confident ones; but the correlation is far from perfect.<br /><br />Mark: That sounds plausible. Thanks for suggesting her work!Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-13083781993935306252022-03-17T02:25:33.529-07:002022-03-17T02:25:33.529-07:00Your post resonates in many ways with susan Cain’s...Your post resonates in many ways with susan Cain’s 2012 work, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking (2012). She demonstrates how American society has come to idealize the extroverted personality and to ignore the strengths that introverts bring to the table. Her aim is to motivate introverts to own our natural temperament and play to our strengths, such as deep thinking, identifying and avoiding unnecessary risks, high awareness of context. Introverts do need to learn to speak up, just as extroverts often need to learn to listen.Mark Farmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02970568915914181321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-13635659265522780592022-03-16T20:18:55.999-07:002022-03-16T20:18:55.999-07:00Since you've been in many more philosophy clas...Since you've been in many more philosophy classrooms than I have, I'm not extremely confident in the point I'm about to make, but I'll say it anyway. The short version is that I think the dynamic you're talking about exists, but that it's more likely to benefit appropriately confident students than overconfident ones. <br /><br />As Helen pointed out, there are serious costs to being "that guy." I think that these guys have the emotional experience of getting a lot out of their philosophy classes, but that they're probably learning less than the students who know that this behavior is inappropriate. I'm sure *some* of them are capable enough to be good PhD candidates, but in my classroom experience, overconfidence seemed to be anticorrelated with philosophical ability: Among the subset of students who spoke up in class, overconfident people made worse arguments than their peers. I never once had the thought, "This guy has a lot of good ideas, but I wish he were more polite."<br /><br />I think you're right, though, that this dynamic unfairly benefits students who feel the most at home in a college classroom. This is troubling because, given the way that American undergrad courses currently work, informed class participation is a virtue. Students who do the reading and then make thoughtful comments in class seem to be helping, so it's pretty bad news if this behavior serves to marginalize students who, for whatever reason, have a harder time speaking up in class. <br /><br />(I'm not sure I completely believe your assessment of yourself in undergrad! I believe that you argued with professors a lot, but I would bet that your comments were a lot better than the ones I'm used to.) Jake Beardsleyhttp://www.jakebeardsley.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-58737738770236619382022-03-16T19:21:59.072-07:002022-03-16T19:21:59.072-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Arnoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02580641063222662041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-55260193774880170642022-03-16T13:10:35.135-07:002022-03-16T13:10:35.135-07:00As I read the post I thought: finally someone'...As I read the post I thought: finally someone's talking about this! (I'm sure Eric, and other people too, have already discussed similar topics earlier - but as someone who has spent four years in grad school, I personally have never heard anyone discussing this.)<br /><br />I am at a somewhat-elite philosophy grad program in the US. I think overconfidence (or something in the vicinity) pays in grad programs as well, or at least in mine. My experience is that, as people have suggested, someone who comes off as arrogant (as described in Eric's article) would not be rewarded. However, I think there is still something more subtle going on. Here are some events that I've been part of:<br /><br />1. We're in a course that does not focus on the "hardcore" area X. A grad student S, who specializes in X, very often raises very specific questions/concerns from X. Most students at the seminar cannot follow what S is talking about. I, as someone who's studied X a little bit, can tell that S's questions are often only loosely relevant. However, the knowledgeable professor seems quite impressed by S's background in X, and always reponds in a encouraging and charitable manner. S gradually becomes even more confident, and becomes someone the professor respects and is proud of. Other students who are less confident feel more difficult to raise questions in the seminar, and worry that the professor would favor S to themselves when it comes to dissertation advising etc.<br /><br />2. In a training event, grad students and professors are discussing how to make philosophy classrooms more inclusive to shy and unconfident students. Professor and confident grad students keep talking about how they will reward and encourage students who speak more in class, and possibly penalize students who do not speak. I, as a shy and unconfident student, sit quietly at the meeting - no one seems to care what I think, which is precisely why I hesitate to speak in meetings and in seminars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-17559483312705669632022-03-16T11:20:16.299-07:002022-03-16T11:20:16.299-07:00Thanks for the continuing comments, folks! Lots o...Thanks for the continuing comments, folks! Lots of responses here -- also on Facebook and Twitter. To pick up just a couple:<br /><br />Anon Mar 15 11:26 and TruePath: I do think we should support these students, not pick on them. However, it's also the case that they can crowd out the shy students in a way that puts the shy at an unfortunate disadvantage. As a professor, it's a balancing act between encouraging the enthusiasm and interest of the overconfident, talkative student and ensuring that others are also encouraged to participate and don't feel cowed or backseated.<br /><br />Duffy / Anon Mar 16 01:00: I suspect this is still gendered. Maybe less so than in earlier decades.<br /><br />Anon Mar 16 06:41: Yes, I stand by that advice. Being overconfident -- at least to the right degree -- is a successful strategy (though not the only one).<br /><br />Greg: Being active is good, yes! Overconfidence is one route to activity, though not the only one. I do also think there is a particularly vivid emotional psychology behind taking a stand you feel confident in and being willing to stick with it against the professor's objections that is both (a.) hard to do without being more confident that you're correct than you probably should be and (b.) drives emotional engagement and memory better than more neutral question-asking.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-16170205103620751912022-03-16T08:45:42.434-07:002022-03-16T08:45:42.434-07:00What benefits are there to being an *overconfident...What benefits are there to being an *overconfident*, highly-active philosophy student that don't accrue simply to being a highly-active philosophy student? <br /><br />As I read this, it seems like the phenomenon comes down to something we teachers encourage: students who participate in discussion benefit from it.Greg Stoutenburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-36768860921042858342022-03-16T08:09:15.802-07:002022-03-16T08:09:15.802-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Arnoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02580641063222662041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-29347926073391937032022-03-16T06:41:08.168-07:002022-03-16T06:41:08.168-07:00Would you still offer graduate students this advic...Would you still offer graduate students this advice? <br /><br />https://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2020/01/how-to-be-awesome-first-year-graduate.html<br /><br />"It's better to have two professors who say you are the most impressive student they've seen in several years than to have four professors who say you are one of the three best students this year. ... academia is generally about standing out for unusual excellence in one or two endeavors"<br /><br />"(3.) Ask for favors from those above you in the hierarchy."<br /><br />"(4.) Think beyond the requirements....If you then chat in an informed way with the professor ... about the six articles you just discovered and read... you will stand out as an unusually passionate and active student."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-77492310836011518882022-03-16T06:09:54.129-07:002022-03-16T06:09:54.129-07:00This phenomenon strikes me as very similar to the ...This phenomenon strikes me as very similar to the well-known birthday effect in sports, where people who are born shortly after the arbitrary cut-off date for elementary school sports end up being overrepresented in higher level (college and professional) sports. Children who areborn shortly after the cutoff date will be, on average, six months older than their teammates, giving them a significant advantages over their teammates. This in turn translates to more playing time and more attention from coaches, leading to advantages later on.Brocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-22359054635008237352022-03-16T01:17:22.139-07:002022-03-16T01:17:22.139-07:00I wasn't an undergrad in the US, but I was def...I wasn't an undergrad in the US, but I was definitely the overconfident student in my cohort. Where did this overconfidence come from? I don't think it sprung out from my dangling manhood, but more due to me reading all the material coming prepared, and writing excellent papers (and enjoying the back and forth of sound argumentation). I had no prior experience in philosophy, educated parents, or expensive education.<br />There was definitely a strain of professors who liked this overconfidence, and there was a strain of professors (mostly educated in top US departments) who much rather have docile and average students who don't truly engage. The problem was the latter tend to sanction you inside\outside of the classroom for the crime of being confident. <br /><br /><br />Maybe we should discuss the "shy philosophy professors" with their slapdash sociological analysis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-90440888592743937552022-03-16T01:00:03.448-07:002022-03-16T01:00:03.448-07:00Long ago, I was at a conference involving postgrad...Long ago, I was at a conference involving postgrad students at which a panel of eminent established philosophy profs offered an 'ask me anything' session.<br /><br />After some more-or-less interesting philosophical questions, came <br /><br />"Why are you all men?"<br /><br />... Some embarrassed chuckles, scuffling of feet. Then this:<br /><br />"To be a successful academic philosopher, you need to learn to engage with and understand some of the greatest thinkers the human race has ever produced, then disagree with them, in public. This requires, for a start, a large helping of unjustified, overweening self-confidence. Which is a mainly male character trait."<br /><br />-- Is it still, I sometimes wonder?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-29132359400325006572022-03-15T20:16:34.025-07:002022-03-15T20:16:34.025-07:00you are correct!you are correct!Kaplan Familyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01638669174854589007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1898822598623176942022-03-15T17:07:41.387-07:002022-03-15T17:07:41.387-07:00The paper just out by Reilly and others
https://w...The paper just out by Reilly and others<br /><br />https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.812483/full<br /><br />shows their male first year university students estimated their own IQs at 9 points higher than the females (the actual IQ difference was not significantly different from zero).David Duffyhttp://users.tpg.com.au/davidd02/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-2840722083100040582022-03-15T14:21:33.384-07:002022-03-15T14:21:33.384-07:00An interesting post Eric, mostly because college c...An interesting post Eric, mostly because college classes are far from the only place these kinds of individuals exist. They almost always exist, for instance, in any vigorous internet discussion. <br /><br />With that in mind, one key question jumped out at me while reading this, and it's along the lines of your final comments in the post. How do we know in any particular situation that we're not that guy? (I should admit that as a blogger and frequent commenter, I've been accused of being that guy many times, I'm sure at least sometimes accurately.)<br /><br />Aside from simply engaging with those who disagree with us, I think the best answer is to never give in to the temptation to reject an idea just because it seems obviously absurd or ridiculous. Or accept one because it's obviously right and true. Doing so is too often just an expression of our existing biases. <br /><br />The innoculation, I think, is to do what our math teacher always forced us to do. Show our work. Go over the logical steps we use to arrive at our conclusion. Often just the preparatory effort will show that our initial gut reaction was wrong. But if it doesn't, and we're brave enough to put that work out there, those who disagree with us will find any chinks in the armor.<br /><br />Of course, it's entirely possible I'm overconfident about this strategy.<br /><br />Mike<br /><br />SelfAwarePatternshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11856665627652130336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-26312589184841201072022-03-15T13:10:26.945-07:002022-03-15T13:10:26.945-07:00I guess I should lay my cards on the table and exp...I guess I should lay my cards on the table and explain why I find this suggestion particularly upsetting.<br /><br />For whatever reason (ADHD something) my brain is setup in a way that I simply can't learn from quietly listening to a lecture. The only classes I ever attended in college were philosophy classes (pretty much literally, the term I took none I didn't attend a single lecture/section...luckily my college didn't care about stuff like attendance) because in those classes I could follow the material *by* engaging with it in exactly the manner you describe. Those instructors always took care to ensure that other students had a chance to speak (I was at a tech school where quite a few, but not all, of the other students were equally talkative) but if they'd tried to compensate for this unfairness issue you mention I wouldn't have been able to get anything out of those classes (I could learn math and physics from the textbook less philosophy).<br /><br />So yes, it's an advantage but it seems utterly unfair and wrong to pick on one advantage and deny it to those students when we happily let students with other advantages (e.g. being able to concentrate and learn by watching lecture quietly) take full advantage of those.TruePathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124043164362758796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-60893185738639828152022-03-15T13:01:00.562-07:002022-03-15T13:01:00.562-07:00Yes, those features end up giving such students so...Yes, those features end up giving such students some advantage. But how is that any different than the fact that being good at reading lots of material, having a good understanding of the language or the like benefit one as a student? I mean I could equally well point out that some students (such as myself in days past) find it much harder than others to stay focused on the conversation or on the reading and that it's those students who often need to go in on the talking to make up for that.<br /><br />Ultimately, we all come to the table with strengths and weaknesses. ANY choices we make about how to teach and even who gets jobs will be unfair. Indeed, even the idea of jobs going to those who are better at philosophy is unfair. What we can ask is whether those choices are effective ways of producing better philosophy (the only reason ppl who produce more philosophy should get the jobs or special classes etc). <br /><br />Maybe one can argue this effect reduces that quality but I'm skeptical. Other things being equal I suspect that being inclined to publicly suggest, voice and argue views correlates with skills that help reach philosophical truth more quickly. <br /><br />I could be wrong about that and I welcome a systematic analysis of what does and doesn't work best to achieve the desired goals.<br /><br />However, what seems deeply misguided is the inconsistent application of this sense of fairness where we treat certain traits (like being able to concentrate on the reading or even being a good writer) as 'fair' reasons for students to do better and other traits like willingness to throw out ideas or risk being wrong in public which equally well are important in professional philosophy as unfair reasons for an advantage. TruePathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124043164362758796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-55300211798022892952022-03-15T11:46:02.802-07:002022-03-15T11:46:02.802-07:00Counter-theory: The system rewards the socially pr...Counter-theory: The system rewards the socially privileged, not overconfident, student. <br /><br />One worrisome implication of this post's theory (against "overconfidence") is the suggestion that professors should keep apparently overconfident students in their place. This conservative impulse might amplify, rather than reduce, the impact of social privilege. <br /><br />As one example, consider that in academia, professors' children acquire early privileges and are vastly overrepresented in the academy, https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/6wjxc. Those children may seem, to professors, to be aptly (not overly) confident. Children of academics know hidden rules, have opportunities to test their ideas at home, etc. Targeting the "apparently overconfident" may exacerbate some of the disparities that this post aims to reduce.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-68508022717349564952022-03-15T11:36:23.395-07:002022-03-15T11:36:23.395-07:00This largely describes me in Grad School, though I...This largely describes me in Grad School, though I wasn't combative with other grads, just with the profs. However, I'd strongly suggest that this doesn't win you many favors from professors, especially those in high-prestige institutions. At many such institutions you are not *expected* to form strong opinions until year 4, as you must "percolate" and "ruminate" endlessly on the texts read by your Betters before you have earned the right to confidence. I had a Year 4 progress report that virtually said this: "He has too much conviction, needs to slow down, this is a problem," blah blah blah, as I was churning out publications and speaking at conferences and acquiring professional success partly because of precisely the epistemic advantages you highlight here. You can be too self-motivated in this field, at least for some.Vanitashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03190524739107446297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-19470481151573429362022-03-15T09:47:22.500-07:002022-03-15T09:47:22.500-07:00Eric: for what it's worth, I think your use of...Eric: for what it's worth, I think your use of "win, lose, draw" is 100% correct, in context. Describes the outcome of such interactions in the way in which they are likely to be perceived by the students/people you describe.<br /><br />Thus, they are likely to reflect how people who are successful (get to be "professors") also perceive them, and as described, the system becomes "stable" on its own, without deliberate efforts. <br />Professors tend to read academic discussions as arguments with winners and losers, and will thus tend to encourage such a combative attitude, etc. etc...<br /><br />I was actually grateful you did use these concepts, made it possible for me to write a "less long" comment! ;-)Sergio Graziosihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07571218856690513933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-58443728047507008212022-03-15T09:33:33.881-07:002022-03-15T09:33:33.881-07:00Thanks for the continuing comments, folks! Respon...Thanks for the continuing comments, folks! Responses to a portion:<br /><br />Helen: Yes, it does seem to me that there's probably a sweet spot of too much overconfidence that becomes counterproductive in the way you suggest.<br /><br />Chinaphil: I actually don't think there's a single abstract thing, "intelligence", and I hope that the post didn't depend on that idea despite the use of the word. (I'm always somewhat hesitant to use that word but it seemed useful in context.) I like your point about framing it in terms of harm to other students.<br /><br />Remis: Yes, very much related to imposter syndrome, I think, for the Type Y students.<br /><br />Sergio: I'm inclined to agree with both of your main points. Probably there are versions of this in many disciplines and professions. On the win/lose/draw thing, right, that's probably too combative a way to see it, and I somewhat regret framing it that way now that you point out the issue.<br /><br />Alex P: I did mean the thing about epistemic virtue sincerely, but also you are surely right about the disadvantages to others and the consequent harms to philosophy as a collective enterprise. Student X's epistemic success is sometimes built in part on harms to other students.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-89596060948380042752022-03-15T09:25:19.257-07:002022-03-15T09:25:19.257-07:00Well, if it's any consolation, philosophy majo...Well, if it's any consolation, philosophy majors aren't exactly privileged regarding post-graduation salaries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-62412384338482889672022-03-15T08:11:50.713-07:002022-03-15T08:11:50.713-07:00As soon as I began reading this piece, I knew ther...As soon as I began reading this piece, I knew there would be a flock of comments! Delightful. Social privilege is a mixed blessing at times. I did not have it but did not worry much over that. Fact-of-matter, I still don't. I will reiterate an observation which is likely in the many views expressed. There are few women in philosophy. Not sure this is about social privilege as much as custom, culture and tradition. I appreciate the views of those I have read.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com