tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post6248061738754720460..comments2024-03-25T11:49:21.281-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: CrazyismEric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-89930330671790168232021-03-28T01:39:00.455-07:002021-03-28T01:39:00.455-07:00"So, for example, panpsychism -- the view tha..."So, for example, panpsychism -- the view that all objects have minds"<br /><br />Panpsychism is the view that all objects have mind. That is to say, rocks don't have minds, but rock has mind. There isn't much to distinguish panpsychism from dual aspect monism. <br /><br />At least, that's how I understand it and how most of the people I know understand it.Darren Reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02684689674874092108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-22118361760885747322018-06-05T13:02:59.252-07:002018-06-05T13:02:59.252-07:00Crazy can be also in a good sense Crazy can be also in a good sense dronehttp://www.drone.srl/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-6239962123957419512011-07-31T15:03:10.055-07:002011-07-31T15:03:10.055-07:00Thanks, Marshall (and Howard)! I'm working on...Thanks, Marshall (and Howard)! I'm working on a longer paper on this right now, though it might not be in circulatable shape for a while. Definitely third use of "crazy".Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-12499801101744608302011-07-31T00:22:22.332-07:002011-07-31T00:22:22.332-07:00I am inclined to think that crazyism is also a jus...<i>I am inclined to think that crazyism is also a justifiable attitude to take toward the relationship between conscious experience and the physical world</i><br /><br />Nicely put. The justification that suceeds when others fail. Certainly much of what I see in the world is counterintuitive to say the least, yet e pur si muove.<br /><br />... congratulations on making the front page at NYTimes.com ....Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10215784276660875929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-81366044095661404472011-07-21T22:20:18.576-07:002011-07-21T22:20:18.576-07:00Eric,
I agree about your third use -- here the us...Eric,<br /><br />I agree about your third use -- here the use of the word is kind of ironic and not abusive. But I'm not sure about the second. Even if you've carefully examined it, you might still be totally wrong and you should have the humility to accept this. Of course 'crazy' is not as bad as some words you could use and may only be a a prelude to further substantive debate. But I still think it should be avoided in this kind of situation.Howard Simmonsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-30506250656632765012011-07-21T08:44:31.866-07:002011-07-21T08:44:31.866-07:00@ Arnold: Not if the evidence firmly points toward...@ Arnold: Not if the evidence firmly points toward that conclusion.<br /><br />@ Howard: I think there's a difference between three ways of doing it. First, calling A "crazy" when you hold a contrary position and haven't seriously, respectfully examined A; second, calling A "crazy" when you hold a contrary position and have seriously, respectfully examined A; and third, calling A "crazy" when you think it might actually be true. I see no problem with the third (which is the crazyist's position, since crazyism about a topic is the position that some crazy thing must be among the core truths about that topic), nor probably with the second.<br /><br />@ Juan: Given what we know about evolution, fetal development, and the tight relationship between the brain and cognition, I do think that Cartesian interactionist dualism, though it has a certain intuitive appeal, quickly starts to present some choices among several highly counterintuitive possibilities. On free will, I suspect folk intuitions are contradictory and unstable, so it ought to be possible to massage things so that each of the going positions looks counterintuitive by folk standards (as experimental philosophers have started doing). Whether the evidence decisively supports one or another position on free will is less clear to me, and may turn partly upon whether crazyism is justified for the mind-body problem, which is related.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-37746699785423263392011-07-20T13:10:27.023-07:002011-07-20T13:10:27.023-07:00Eric, would you consider Cartesian dualism to be a...Eric, would you consider Cartesian dualism to be a "crazy" position given what we know? Or is it, as with the example of pansychism, something that has different levels of weirdness? It strikes me that certain strands of philosophy of mind inch very close to a weak form of dualism, insofar that they think that there is an irreducibly hard "problem" of consciousness that can't be solved by appeals to materialism.<br /><br />Another topic which comes to mind in respect to crazyism is "free will". What would count as crazy there? There haven been a lot of discussion on the subject in the nerdier parts of the blogosphere, here are some samples:<br /><br />http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/<br /><br />http://choiceindying.com/2011/07/12/on-poetry-and-freedom/<br /><br />http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/brother-blackford-weighs-in-on-free-will/<br /><br />I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject.<br /><br />- JuanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-85078339827574925132011-07-20T05:10:12.100-07:002011-07-20T05:10:12.100-07:00Outside causal conversation, the description of a...Outside causal conversation, the description of any philosophical position as 'crazy', however outlandish it may seem, is unprofessional. It amounts to a kind of abuse of one's opponent and is certainly not conducive to discovering the truth.Howard Simmonshttp://www.philosophyadvise.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-70169514140482920762011-07-19T11:56:11.868-07:002011-07-19T11:56:11.868-07:00If the logical implications of a crazy idea succes...If the logical implications of a crazy idea successfully predict novel events that couldn't be predicted on the basis of any other known idea, is it still a crazy idea?Arnold Trehubhttp://people.umass.edu/trehubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-48567618880351422192011-07-19T11:17:57.384-07:002011-07-19T11:17:57.384-07:00Thanks for clarifying that, Richard. If Sorenson ...Thanks for clarifying that, Richard. If Sorenson thinks the unbelievability that results is sufficient to make the case for epistemicism about vagueness indecisive, regardless of the proof, then it sounds like he might be committed to something like crazyism. But if the unbelievability is mere psychological fact not undercutting the epistemic merits of epistemicism, then he merely holds (what he takes to be) a robustly counterintuitive position.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-69630388957801877452011-07-19T01:30:39.524-07:002011-07-19T01:30:39.524-07:00My point about epistemic vagueness was that Sorens...My point about epistemic vagueness was that Sorenson makes a distinction between an existence proof and an explanatory proof. Sure he thinks the existence proof is there (so I guess he's not crazy!) but the result of the proof leads to him being commited to a whole set of beliefs that strike even him as unbelievable. That part is the crazyism I guess. (Tim Williamson doesn't have this issue because he doesn't care about an explanatory proof).Richard Marshallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-29482219054975741502011-07-18T16:33:21.185-07:002011-07-18T16:33:21.185-07:00@ Anon 12:40: I was deliberately defining panpsych...@ Anon 12:40: I was deliberately defining panpsychism in a strong way as an example of a crazy view. There are some people who do hold that view. There are also, as you say, weaker views of panpsychism that may or may not be crazy in the intended sense. If I had defined panpsychism to include them, that would have blurred its value as an example.<br /><br />@ Richard Marshall: Epistemicism about vagueness does seem crazy to me. But that's because I don't think the evidence compels it, whereas epistemicists about vagueness apparently do think the evidence compels epistemicism. That said, vagueness might be one of those areas in which all going approachs are highly counterintuitive when their consequences are sufficiently elucidated; so *if* there is no good basis to choose among them, crazyism might be the right attitude to take.<br /><br />@ Anon 1:21: Thanks for the suggestions! I don't know much about population ethics, but personal identity would seem to me a reasonable candidate if I didn't like one of the counterintuitive resolutions to it so much better than the others!<br /><br />@ Firezdog: I'm not sure I accept your premises. Or maybe crazyism is only justified among those of us with one foot in the asylum, so we can see how things look inside, but another foot in common sense.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-45725130272143848412011-07-18T16:22:44.484-07:002011-07-18T16:22:44.484-07:00Responses, cont.:
@ Anon 9:32: One might start by...Responses, cont.:<br /><br />@ Anon 9:32: One might start by ignoring the crazy theories, but once all the non-crazy ones are ruled out, the remaining crazy ones might rise to non-trivial p's (*if* one assumes that one has a good enough view of what the alternative possibilities are).<br /><br />@ Chairephon: I suspect "badass" and "crazy" will be substantially overlapping categories!<br /><br />@ Jay: Yes, crazyism seems very likely to be true about the infinite. I might even tap that as an example in future presentations. Thanks!<br /><br />@ Anon 11:55: It is possible that all views on the table are crazy but crazyism is not justified. That would be the case if it was reasonable to believe that something non-crazy was true but we just haven't figured it out yet. I'm not inclined to think this is the situation regarding the mind-body problem, though. Idealism is crazy on its face. Interactionist substance dualism has some crazy implications if you work it out; enough that I would call it crazy, too, all things considered. The various forms of non-interactionist substance dualism are also pretty much crazy on their face. Materialism and property dualism are, I think, like interactional substance dualism, pretty crazy when the implications are worked out (especially in implying that some very weird assemblages will have conscious experience) -- though I know this will take some arguing in our current philosophical climate. There are other alternatives too, but I don't think they are less bizarre.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-28073175166514928782011-07-18T16:09:56.033-07:002011-07-18T16:09:56.033-07:00Thanks for the continuing comments, folks!
@ Anon...Thanks for the continuing comments, folks!<br /><br />@ Anon Sat 12:28: Good points. It might be possible to define different strengths of crazyism, depending on how stringent the criteria are for a view's being "crazy".<br /><br />@ Jeremybee: I think it might be wise for me to hold off for now on the question of whether those particular views as "crazy" or not! What do you think?<br /><br />@ Jobie: I agree that there will be cultural variation in what counts as "crazy" -- in fact probably an immense amount of variation on big-picture metaphysical questions, I suspect. I think my sketch of the view can accommodate such relativism about craziness.<br /><br />@ Richard Baron: That's an interesting suggestion.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-40896719086719288402011-07-18T13:41:44.671-07:002011-07-18T13:41:44.671-07:00What good is this? If someone is really crazy, he...What good is this? If someone is really crazy, he thinks everybody else is crazy. Only the sane can agree on whom to call insane (but if it is an empirical question what counts as common sense, then it will follow that as common sense varies, so does sanity).firezdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11473050286104950159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-76799616111217786642011-07-18T13:23:22.053-07:002011-07-18T13:23:22.053-07:00--amend that last sentence to say "NO true po...--amend that last sentence to say "NO true position on the subject can avoid (crazily) rejecting one of them."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-10135065340615396382011-07-18T13:21:29.665-07:002011-07-18T13:21:29.665-07:00I would nominate personal identity and population ...I would nominate personal identity and population ethics as areas in which crazyism is justified. It seems that there is no consistent position on either which does not require some unbelievable conclusion--and we can procure evidence that this is so by running arguments to establish that some commonsense facts about personal identity and population ethics are, in fact, jointly inconsistent, and hence, that true position on the subject can avoid (crazily) rejecting one of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-31114636026996463222011-07-18T12:52:37.913-07:002011-07-18T12:52:37.913-07:00It strikes me that the epistemic solution to vague...It strikes me that the epistemic solution to vagueness would count as crazyism. In fact Roy Sorenson defines the meta-sorites problem as the incredulity people have when confronted with the existence proof for epistemic vagueness.Richard Marshallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-46191374555008051652011-07-18T12:40:34.694-07:002011-07-18T12:40:34.694-07:00"panpsychism -- the view that all objects hav..."panpsychism -- the view that all objects have minds -- would appear to be crazy."<br /><br />Except for the fact that your definition of panpsychism is not the definition of pansychism as it's commonly used in philosophical discourse. <br /><br />The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines panpsychism (see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/) as "the doctrine that mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe," but is careful to note that is only a first approximation--and that there is a wide range of disagreement about how best to understand these terms. <br /><br />In other words, the view "all objects have minds" is more like a caricature of panpsychism than an accurate definition.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I don't consider myself a panpsychist, but I'm willing to allow that there are some intelligent defenses of something like a generalized panpsychism in the philosophical literature. See for instance Galen Strawson's "Consciousness and Its Place in Nature: Does Physicalism Entail Panpsychism?," and the bibliography of the Stanford Encyclopedia entry just cited.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-63347934331629364132011-07-18T12:13:19.535-07:002011-07-18T12:13:19.535-07:00Forget about the above comment. I made a mistake.Forget about the above comment. I made a mistake.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-11046513614051859932011-07-18T11:55:56.631-07:002011-07-18T11:55:56.631-07:00You say that a topic is crazy (“crazyism”) if some...You say that a topic is crazy (“crazyism”) if some of the core truths of that topic are crazy: strongly contrary to common sense and unsupported by scientific or other evidence. But do your examples support this? If the topics are consciousness and quantum mechanics, are the competing views on the topics, and their core truths, among the core truths of those topics (consciousness and quantum mechanics)? For example, maybe the core truths of consciousness are not crazy, even though, perhaps, all the views currently on the table are crazy, because their core truths are crazy. It depends, I guess, on the topic. If it’s “the relationship between conscious experience and the material world”, as you say it is, are there even any core truths about that topic? Maybe that it’s mysterious; but that’s not crazy. What do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-1976305792872663412011-07-18T10:45:37.414-07:002011-07-18T10:45:37.414-07:00Well said. I've been telling my students that ...Well said. I've been telling my students that crazyism is justified about infinity, but in different words.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02025642622351905163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-13681310619657441632011-07-18T10:29:36.216-07:002011-07-18T10:29:36.216-07:00Perhaps relevant: this classification of philosoph...Perhaps relevant: <a href="http://www.unc.edu/~megw/WussyBadAss.html" rel="nofollow">this classification</a> of philosophical views.Chairephonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-31082694205462325032011-07-18T09:32:16.944-07:002011-07-18T09:32:16.944-07:00Should one spend time on crazy theories? For examp...Should one spend time on crazy theories? For example, if one ranks by prior probabilities the theories one could pursue, wouldn't the crazy ones have the lowest priors, and thus one could rationally ignore them, or at least not spend finite resources to pursue them instead of ones with higher priors? Think of alternative medicine therapy hypotheses here vs. conventional therapy hypotheses and the finite resources to conduct experiments so see which work.<br />An article was written about this problem back in 1995 in the Mt Sinai J of Med by a philosopher.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-41538025022563491462011-07-18T05:52:40.788-07:002011-07-18T05:52:40.788-07:00If we are tempted by crazyism in response to a giv...If we are tempted by crazyism in response to a given question, that is, if all the answers we can think of look crazy (and perhaps we have reason to believe that any possible answer would also look crazy - though I'm not sure how one could make such a strong claim), isn't one possible response to say, "We're asking the wrong question"?<br /><br />To apply this to the question "How should we interpret quantum mechanics?", we might conclude (and I am very tempted to conclude) that seeking to interpret it is the wrong pursuit - except that it has generated some very interesting and important philosophical spin-offs. Instead of seeking interpretations, we should perhaps concentrate on adapting our habits of thought so that the uninterpreted equations are straightforwardly meaningful to us, as if mathematics were our native language.<br /><br />I think one could make similar suggestions for other areas where crazyism is tempting.Richard Baronhttp://www.rbphilo.comnoreply@blogger.com