tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post7900371874306897118..comments2024-03-25T11:49:21.281-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: Ethical EfficienciesEric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-61117513285122145622022-01-19T04:24:51.710-08:002022-01-19T04:24:51.710-08:00Well, good luck with your reduction project! I hop...Well, good luck with your reduction project! I hope you can find that moral sweet spot that produces the biggest bang for your moral buck. Here’s hoping also you can crack that knotty conundrum of why people who have studied ethics don’t seem behave better. Similarly, I have put years of reading and study into music theory, yet I’m still an absolute klutz on the piano. I can’t seem to figure out why!Matti Meikäläinennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-62366931947102161212022-01-19T00:00:22.269-08:002022-01-19T00:00:22.269-08:00Actually Matti, that is about what I think of as “...Actually Matti, that <i>is</i> about what I think of as “ethics” or “moral notions”. In many ways I’m certainly not typical however, and certainly not here. Though professor S. may have written this post, I think he does cheer for your perspective to hopefully prevail some day. Unlike him I doubt that I’ll ever agree to the existence of “moral truths” for example. The problem is that he’s generally run into opposing evidence. <br /><br />Even though science is able to study non human stuff in “hard” ways, I suspect that psychology largely remains “soft” because the social tool of morality has not yet permitted science to reduce human psychological function back to basic components. We can of course reduce plants down to basic components without getting morally judgmental for example, though reducing ourselves this way seems too sticky — reality shouldn’t always conform with what we’re naturally encouraged to believe about ourselves. <br /><br />For example in my first comment on the “Longtermism” post just before this one, I did pondered saying that if we were to figure out how to make ourselves feel millions of times better than normal, as well as build machines that could take care of us in ways that we thus wouldn’t be, then such an end should be our destiny. But I also realized that this conclusion should be too repugnant and ultimately immoral for many to tolerate. So on the hope of fostering objective consideration I instead presented some basic psychology for a creature on another planet that logically ought to end up like that. Then with the model in place I could simply say “us too”.Philosopher Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126076811765843302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-46391530354383163372022-01-16T11:03:45.547-08:002022-01-16T11:03:45.547-08:00Thanks for the question...'What are we sacrifi...Thanks for the question...'What are we sacrificing'...<br /><br />Are sacrifice and self fundamental to ethics morality value...<br /><br />I am never sure if dualism and monism theories want to experience understanding...Arnoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02580641063222662041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-21049368480859866192022-01-15T13:45:11.252-08:002022-01-15T13:45:11.252-08:00I find this an odd discussion. It sounds like a c...I find this an odd discussion. It sounds like a class in economics. It seems as if being “good” is some sort of commodity that we purchase with our actions. It also seems as if this commodity then performs the functions of acceptance and validation within our community—like a house or a new car—which should be at least minimally impressive to our neighbors. For example, as Prof Eric Schwitzgebel says “one advantage of discovering moral truths is discovering more efficient ways to achieve your mediocre moral targets with the minimum of self-sacrifice.” In response to a comment he says, people want to be ethical, “they just don’t (usually) want to sacrifice more for ethical goodness than they see their peers doing.” What are we sacrificing? Does doing the right thing come with a price tag? It’s like trying to figure out how much of the traffic code (stopping at red lights, yielding to pedestrians, etc.) I can avoid yet still be considered a good driver. Is ethical action like adhering to the traffic code? Very strange. Is that what you all really think of as ethics? Matti Meikäläinennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-4051384877043190712022-01-14T15:25:22.025-08:002022-01-14T15:25:22.025-08:00Sadly, I have to say I agree with Howard. It just ...Sadly, I have to say I agree with Howard. It just doesn't seem that morality is something that plays a factor in most people's decision making most of the time. I would say it very rarely does, in fact. I think WHEN ASKED most people will say they aim for moral mediocrity, or will engage in some sort of post hoc rationalization in retrospect, but moral considerations don't seem guiding in the majority of situations for most people.<br /><br />To your college students not cheating more point: my interpretation is that most students don't cheat because most other students don't cheat. Full stop. No need to bring thoughts of morality into it at all. With regard to morality, most students aren't aiming at anything.<br /><br />If you aren't in the habit of thinking about your actions in terms of their moral impact, and then making decisions based on the moral considerations, you simply won't generally do it. Which is why I think it is so important that we include things that encourage and cultivate ethical or ethical-like thinking in education. It gets people in the habit of engaging in the sorts of thinking important for ethical consideration ( i.e. the moral importance of narrative! :D ).<br /><br />Chris McVeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15260339287982769708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-29499262560402842562022-01-14T12:13:24.630-08:002022-01-14T12:13:24.630-08:00Dear Professor
People differently placed in life...Dear Professor <br /><br />People differently placed in life would settle our differences in different ways.<br />Not to be sociological, but the kind of ethics and the very idea of ethics have a wide disparity depending on who you ask.<br />I have a wider set of experiences than most people- not quite Odysseus but I've been exposed to different classes of society- <br />I told a senior librarian your argument and he and he is a decent person (as opposed to street, see: Code of the street) and very smart, smarter than me, and he said he had a bridge and a tunnel to sell you.<br />Perhaps someone who was a substitute teacher in a city High School would have a different idea of ethics than a college professor<br />I think ethics in some ways is indispensable but in some ways a luxury- and it depends on context and is not necessarily universalHowardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-81925795011779340752022-01-14T11:29:02.520-08:002022-01-14T11:29:02.520-08:00But you said elsewhere that behavior is the ultima...But you said elsewhere that behavior is the ultimate test of belief. How do you justify your conclusion?<br />Good point though on some level. I don't suppose people are bad; but people at the very least worry more about how they are perceived, or about assuring their position or desires are not jeopardized. Or are passively obedient to authority<br />Psychological and situational variables are confounded with ethics.<br />Perhaps people on some level want to be ethical, but it's not their primary concern and they're not good at it. <br />There are other things they want more<br />I think this is one situation where college students have a different experience than the so called real world: school has defined rules and it centers around their well being and it is simple to play by the rules and straightforward to succeed if not always easy<br />Despite all their issues they don't face a hostile or indifferent environment that does not affirm their humanity as in the so called real worldHowardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-9289838879782551292022-01-14T10:25:52.483-08:002022-01-14T10:25:52.483-08:00Thanks for the comments, folks:
Owen: Yes, I agre...Thanks for the comments, folks:<br /><br />Owen: Yes, I agree. I left that out of the model for simplicity, but it would be structurally parallel.<br /><br />Howard: I guess I disagree! I think people do want to be ethical. They just don't (usually) want to sacrifice more for ethical goodness than they see their peers doing. For example, I am impressed how few students appear to cheat on the final exams in my big lower division classes, even though there are ways that they could do so that would trigger suspicion but which we wouldn't be able to prove. I think they see other students being honest and they want to be honest too. Similarly, I think professors want to do right by their colleagues and their students -- not always and not at all costs, but generally so, and often this involves some self-sacrifice and doing some unpleasant tasks with little external reward.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-52681755329682886902022-01-14T09:37:26.673-08:002022-01-14T09:37:26.673-08:00Hi Eric:
I gave your article a closer look and wi...Hi Eric:<br /><br />I gave your article a closer look and will try to address directly your points after an even closer look.<br />I'd say reframing ethics as something other than ethics might help<br />Ethics is like a healthy food people don't really want to eat.<br />Think of it when possible not as a technical problem but as a marketing or motivational problem<br />There was a time when people did want to do and be good, because of God or because the so called right path was spelled out positively in their culture's tradition: like Spartiates or Orthodox JewsHowardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-84547005373603657332022-01-14T09:34:16.595-08:002022-01-14T09:34:16.595-08:00I really enjoyed this, thank you for writing it! I...I really enjoyed this, thank you for writing it! It occurs to me that for similar reasons, if the person is incorrect about what they do or don't like, then they can improve their tradeoff efficiency by learning more about their own preferences.Owen Bieselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14975664788729692249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-89969733698735174812022-01-13T10:43:44.365-08:002022-01-13T10:43:44.365-08:00Being ethical in today's world is probably low...Being ethical in today's world is probably low on most people's lists though most people would desist from the too overtly unethical.<br />Any account of the ethical must include 'appearing ethical' and what motivates people in real life situations.<br />I'm not so sure ethical behavior easily is separated from real world considerations- which in a way is obvious since ethics is designed to manage our selfishness and so on.<br />Still it is not something people think about until someone's rights are violated or they have a dilemma or a crime is committed.<br />I doubt ethical theories have any real autonomy, sadly, so your project is misconceivedHowardnoreply@blogger.com