tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post7918163217944277967..comments2024-03-25T11:49:21.281-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: Are Ethicists Any More Responsive to Undergraduate Emails Than Are Other Professors?Eric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-45569030061375703142013-07-16T08:02:03.031-07:002013-07-16T08:02:03.031-07:00Anon: "Often" is one of those funny word...Anon: "Often" is one of those funny words. If it were "on average" it would be a bold and interesting claim, but I don't know what to make of "often".<br /><br />Josh Rust and I have a voting participation study in which we found that ethicists and political philosophers in the U.S. are, on average, no more likely to vote than are other professors (though Political Science professors are more likely to vote):<br /><br />http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/EthicistsVote.htm<br />Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-703116641255963012013-07-16T02:22:16.624-07:002013-07-16T02:22:16.624-07:00Someone on Leiter's 'do philosophers make ...Someone on Leiter's 'do philosophers make the world a better place?' thread made this aside: "Isn't it interesting that the metaphysicians, logicians, philosophers of language, and epistemologists are often more politically engaged than the ethicists and political theorists?"<br /><br />Is this a common perception among philosophers? Do you have any data on political engagement among ethicists vs. other philosophers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-66465721757078566112009-07-21T14:25:17.985-07:002009-07-21T14:25:17.985-07:00Anon: I would encourage you not to get overly susp...Anon: I would encourage you not to get overly suspicious. We have not sent out any misleading email messages since winter. Nor is it clear that we will do any further attempts with this paradigm, especially since I've already spilled the beans on the blog.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-29600435091716028482009-07-21T10:46:40.376-07:002009-07-21T10:46:40.376-07:00Is this work continuing, by any chance? Now every...Is this work continuing, by any chance? Now every time I get a suspicious sounding email from student, I wonder whether it's fake.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-14585457693214680862009-06-23T17:03:40.362-07:002009-06-23T17:03:40.362-07:00No doubt, Matthew, that was one of those lawyer-im...No doubt, Matthew, that was one of those lawyer-imposed lines!<br /><br />Badda: Since we're also looking at the normative views of ethicists, we can at least judge whether the status quo is also approved by most ethicists or whether there is, instead, some deviation in opinion. (There is a marked deviation on some questions: Ethicists are much more likely to say that eating the meat of mammals is morally bad than are professors outside of philosophy.)Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-15471902865562578872009-06-23T15:33:17.431-07:002009-06-23T15:33:17.431-07:00On Aristotle: Don't forget that even though he...<i>On Aristotle: Don't forget that even though he said that philosophical ethics cannot make a person good if that person hasn't had the proper upbringing to start with, he still said that the aim in studying ethics is to become good!</i><br /><br />Right. But perhaps he was obliged (from the perspective of self-interest) to say that so his students wouldn't ask for a tuition refund!Matthew Pianaltohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16380038537888895216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-12749347138526945382009-06-22T18:27:45.173-07:002009-06-22T18:27:45.173-07:00Which, by the way, cuts to the real problem I have...Which, by the way, cuts to the real problem I have with this study: the standard for good behavior employed is simply that which is already accepted by the vast majority of readers, which in turn makes your implied social engineering goal one of boring us deeper into the status quo.Badda Beingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-21885668511577378592009-06-22T18:16:56.795-07:002009-06-22T18:16:56.795-07:00Oh, I'm only speaking hyperbolically. She migh...Oh, I'm only speaking hyperbolically. She might not be a jerk but she'll certainly be weird, maybe even dysfunctional in certain respects -- that is, compared to the status quo. Not that I find anything wrong with that, which is why, elsewhere, I said it was good news that ethicists don't consistently earn high marks for ethical behavior. Otherwise ethicists would be acting in conformity with what counts as ethical behavior only to untrained observers.<br /><br />On the other hand, if their ethical behavior is found to be on par with everyone else's instead of noticeably worse -- if they are not found to be militants of a cause, however trivial, like responding to or ignoring all emails -- then I would say they are still disengaged from any kind of interesting work.Badda Beingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-14013726451186596232009-06-22T13:17:17.681-07:002009-06-22T13:17:17.681-07:00Matthew: We have used two criteria for counting so...Matthew: We have used two criteria for counting someone as an "ethicist" in our studies. One is self-report: Does the person describe herself as a "specialist" in ethics? The other -- used in the analysis we report here -- is to look at the areas of specialization listed on the individual's website. (We haven't re-analyzed the data yet using the self-description measure; I doubt the results will differ much though.)<br /><br />I suspect few ethicists would want to base their authority to teach ethics classes on having superior moral virtue, but rather as you suggest on their knowledge of the literature and their skill at philosophical argumentation. Of course, it's very much less than this to claim that philosophical moral reflection tends, on average, to have positive moral effects.<br /><br />On Aristotle: Don't forget that even though he said that philosophical ethics cannot make a person good if that person hasn't had the proper upbringing to start with, he still said that the aim in studying ethics is to become good!Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-63083769229265343702009-06-22T13:06:59.915-07:002009-06-22T13:06:59.915-07:00Badda: That's an interesting point. I do conf...Badda: That's an interesting point. I do confess some very tentative attraction to the idea that putting energy into being morallly good in one domain may have a negative impact on your energy for other kinds of moral behavior. Or in terms of temporal trade-offs, every student email you answer is that much less time you could be spending being a good father. This is another reason, I think, to value convergent evidence from a variety of domains. But it would be absurd -- wouldn't it? -- to think the following: Oh she answers her undergraduate emails conscientiously, she must be a total jerk!Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-55790262848533669962009-06-21T23:12:16.742-07:002009-06-21T23:12:16.742-07:00Eric (if I may): Fair enough. You may be right tha...Eric (if I may): Fair enough. You may be right that I overblew the difference between niceness and (say) virtue in lodging my concern.<br /><br />I am, however, still interested in what you think about the more general question/issue I raised: who are you counting as an ethicist? (Those who specialize in, for example, metaethics, may identify more closely with "M&E" than with normative ethics. It's also the case that there are a diversity of views on what "moral expertise" amounts to--or, for example, what the moral expertise is which "ethics professors" have which make them particularly qualified to teach courses in ethics. Many who chime in on these matters tend to focus on notions of "descriptive" expertise--that certain people know more about "descriptive ethics" (say, through study), as well as having (through philosophical training) more skill at identifying and evaluating arguments and justifications.)<br /><br />I'm interested in that issue myself, and so I do think your studies can contribute to it. Particularly, if it does turn out that "ethics professors" act more or less as good or bad--ignoring disputes about details here--in various ways, then what exactly can ethics professors be teaching (or legitimately claim to teach) in ethics class?<br /><br />With Aristotle in mind, I always warn my students (especially when we start talking about virtue ethics), that if they thought I'd be teaching them everything necessary for "being good," they signed up for the wrong class...Matthew Pianaltohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16380038537888895216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-49275316453755611062009-06-21T13:31:32.993-07:002009-06-21T13:31:32.993-07:00It doesn't have to do too much work. Let's...It doesn't have to do too much work. Let's just say rigid enough that the ethicists in question are found to be more responsive to undergraduate emails than other professors. <br /><br />Your initial assumption that "it's morally better, generally speaking, to respond to undergraduate emails than to ignore them" strikes me as equivalent to saying that it's morally better, generally speaking, to perform your job duties than to neglect them, so unless you are cynical of the work ethic of other professors, anyone who overperforms in this area of their job is going to have other problems. Their overperformance or overpatterning is going to cut into the patterning of other behaviors, like, you know, not being an ass hole.<br /><br />Then again, I don’t know what's on the job description of professors.Badda Beingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-82815369989858268582009-06-21T09:28:52.586-07:002009-06-21T09:28:52.586-07:00Clayton and Matthew: It sounds like you and some o...Clayton and Matthew: It sounds like you and some others are more beseiged by kooks than I. My inclination is to think, however, that if you think there's a decent chance it really is from someone with a legitimate claim to want to know your office hours you could reply, as a fair number of our respondents did, with a query asking who the person is. (This, or any other reply, would count as a reply in our coding system.)<br /><br />Maybe you're right that it's nice or supererogatory to do so, rather than an obligation. I'm not sure why that would be a serious problem with the study, though: Maybe we're studying supererogatory behavior or a particular virtue (which is consistent with lacking other virtues). Fine! We draw no conclusion from this one study. We have multiple studies completed and ongoing; we're looking for convergent evidence, for patterns across a wide diversity of moral behaviors.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-33618537359763905492009-06-21T09:20:46.669-07:002009-06-21T09:20:46.669-07:00Badda: How much work is "rigid" doing in...Badda: How much work is "rigid" doing in your comment? Acting in conformity with one's ideals doesn't sound nearly as creepy as *rigidly* acting in conformity with one's ideals. (Was Gandhi rigid? Not that I know much about his case in particular.)Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-63504648158185021222009-06-20T22:12:02.886-07:002009-06-20T22:12:02.886-07:00Eric, I propose you devise another survey to asses...Eric, I propose you devise another survey to assess the perceived mental health of those ethicists who do behave, in line with folk expectations, in rigid conformity with their ideals. I predict the results will show they are complete ass holes.Badda Beingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-74107941298089540692009-06-20T16:58:05.879-07:002009-06-20T16:58:05.879-07:00I second Richard's concerns, and don't fin...I second Richard's concerns, and don't find your response particularly compelling. At least, it makes it even less clear what the "big picture" is here. If responding to these e-mails is just a <i>nice</i> thing to do, then it's not obvious that you're studying <i>moral</i> behavior. (Cruel people can be nice at times.) Perhaps if the point is that responding to these emails is <i>supererogatory</i>, then you are. But I'm rather confused about what the <i>moral</i> take-home point is. (Aside from the fact that I'm likely overly generous in how I rate myself in various domains, but I already knew that.)<br /><br />Another thing is that you might want to think about what you mean by "ethicist": people working in metaethics are (sometimes) going to be ethicists in a different sense than people working in bioethics, etc. If the point is to expose an interesting and <i>distinctive</i> inconsistency, you might want to focus on the right kind of ethicist...(alas, I don't know which kind that is...)Matthew Pianaltohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16380038537888895216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-4903217429154365372009-06-20T13:26:47.368-07:002009-06-20T13:26:47.368-07:00Interesting: the gap between people's overinfl...Interesting: the gap between people's overinflated opinions of themselves and their actual conformity with their own ideals is instrumental to avoiding the perils of overpatterned behaviors.Badda Beingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-12447709319882350472009-06-20T12:35:55.116-07:002009-06-20T12:35:55.116-07:00Eric,
I have similar worries to those that Manuel...Eric,<br /><br />I have similar worries to those that Manuel raised. I get emails from students who want help b/c they don't like their professors, people who want to buy my books, and religious nutjobs that want to find out when my office hours are so they can trap me in my office to tell me their views about evolution and homosexuality. If I ever receive an email asking about office hours, I'd probably assume that it's from someone in this group. That being said, I'm pretty good about responding to my students emails (even the less than fully reasonable ones), so I worry about this aspect of the study.Clayton Littlejohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05596200828134402805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-22813518383331985232009-06-20T09:54:45.505-07:002009-06-20T09:54:45.505-07:00But Eric, the answers to your questions are more i...But Eric, the answers to your questions are more illuminative of the practical as opposed to the moral value of certain ways of thinking vis-a-vis what you only assume, in line with the status quo, to be the moral value of certain ways of behaving. In other words, they are less suitable to be used, as you say, "in arguments about the moral value of certain ways of thinking" than in arguments about how to produce the behaviors you value without question. The latter is a problem for social engineering, not philosophy, very much akin to the promotion of good (m)oral hygiene. On the other hand, therein lies at least some kind of praxis.Badda Beingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-19923510052122048712009-06-19T12:17:16.385-07:002009-06-19T12:17:16.385-07:00Thanks for the helpful comment, Manuel. Your and ...Thanks for the helpful comment, Manuel. Your and others' comments here are helping me see that the interpretation of our emails was less clear than we anticipated. That's one reason it's good that we tried it with a couple different emails!Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-35446726194059702522009-06-19T09:52:16.508-07:002009-06-19T09:52:16.508-07:00Hi Eric-
I very likely said I should respond to a...Hi Eric-<br /><br />I very likely said I should respond to all undergrad emails, but I surely also read it to mean all undergrad emails written by my students or some other circumscribed subset. But this does convince me that I was too ready to say "all undergrad emails." I can now state with confidence that I would not necessarily reply to undergrad emails from (1) students that were asking rude, sexist, racist, or inappropriate questions, (2) students that I had reason to believe were dead, hospitalized, or in a vegetable state, (3) students curtly inquiring about things that that make no sense given my familiarity with students, local norms, and so on. <br /><br />Emails about office hours from students I don't recognize in my small college, while on sabbatical, after having been away from regular teaching for two prior years fall into (3). :-)<br /><br />But those might not be typical problems with what the study was picking up on. For what it is worth, I responded to the declaring a major email, but not the office hours email. Frankly, I was surprised to learn that I never responded to the office hours email, but then I looked at the email again I remembered why: I didn't think it was a student! <br /><br />I thought it was one of those annoying people who come around my office several times a term and bombard me with emails about when they can come by and swipe unused books. Indeed, there is nothing in the email to mark that it is from a student, and many of the people I have in mind will contact me with ambiguous university-ish email addresses. That, I think, is a more serious thing for any faculty at universities where they are pestered by such people, or universities where the crank factor is high. When I was visiting at Berkeley, I sometimes felt besieged by the local cranks wanting to talk to me, sending me emails, and the like. So, perhaps, I'm more likely than most to not think an unknown email address was one of those folks. <br /><br />I hereby encourage you to see what happens if the email makes it clear that it is an undergrad student at the university of the professor asking about office hours. <br /><br />Anyway, fascinating stuff as usual!Manuel Vargasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-86549230839132021972009-06-19T09:13:25.277-07:002009-06-19T09:13:25.277-07:00Neil: We found no differences by gender, universit...Neil: We found no differences by gender, university type (research vs teaching oriented), or rank (controlling for age). Younger professors were marginally more likely to respond and significantly more likely to say it's bad not to respond; but they were also less likely to claim to respond to 100% of undergraduate emails. Thus, it seems their self-portrayals were more accurate.<br /><br />We also compared self-described deontologists, consequentialists, virtue ethicists, skeptics, and "no settled position". Though the numbers were relatively small, we found no differences that approached statistical significance.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-38366449299329680752009-06-19T09:10:33.575-07:002009-06-19T09:10:33.575-07:00Thanks, Tamler, for the feedback about that. We&#...Thanks, Tamler, for the feedback about that. We'll be happy if readers agree that, even if it's not obligatory, at least morally better to respond than not to respond to at least one of the emails.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-20864645516110166552009-06-19T04:53:06.109-07:002009-06-19T04:53:06.109-07:00Any gender differences, Eric? I would guess that (...Any gender differences, Eric? I would guess that (regardless of speciality) women would feel more of an obligation to respond, and also would respond more.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12586131772199247420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-37269420304302941872009-06-18T21:45:10.472-07:002009-06-18T21:45:10.472-07:00Eric, I'm not sure either (about the email, I ...Eric, I'm not sure either (about the email, I know I took the survey). I just wanted to see whether I thought the emails were ones that, in my view, should be answered. After seeing them, my first reaction is: maybe, probably, somewhere in between, we should respond to the undergraduate advisor query (although it's an annoying email, they should be able to figure that out) but the office hours email from someone you don't know who's not in your class sounds creepy. Of course I may be rationalizing since that one sounds vaguely familiar. But I just did a search for "office hours" and it didn't come up.Tamlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09345122059936018977noreply@blogger.com