tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post8300408336840429381..comments2024-03-25T11:49:21.281-07:00Comments on The Splintered Mind: Does the Heart Revolt at Evil? The Case of Racial AtrocitiesEric Schwitzgebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11541402189204286449noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-33830375669163256652022-09-28T12:43:18.773-07:002022-09-28T12:43:18.773-07:00Thanks for the thoughtful comment, chinaphil! Xin...Thanks for the thoughtful comment, chinaphil! Xing e for Xunzi seems to mean that human nature is bad, so it is meant to be parallel and symmetrical as you describe, I think. Not just amoral, but positively bad. I can see how my brief treatment of Xunzi might lead one to think otherwise, though. I think this is partly because in chapters other than the Xing E chapter it's not as clear that people are naturally bad -- sometimes it seems simply that they have chaotic impulses including some good ones (like the animal caring for its young or the person who mourns their parents but not in the right way). So in my summary, I might have too much downplayed the badness, with my eye on the whole of the Xunzi.<br /><br />As for overintellectualizing, I'm not quite as much seeing what I said that engendered your critique here. One thing Xunzi is clear about is that surrounding yourself by the right people and cultivating the right repetitive habits is central to moral development. But also, as a good Confucian he doesn't neglect the importance of memorizing the classics and deferring to your teacher.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-18470288477776223202022-09-28T00:06:02.433-07:002022-09-28T00:06:02.433-07:00The asymmetry of the two positions as you present ...The asymmetry of the two positions as you present them is doing my head in! I think I have a comment to make, but I can't work out what it is for the life of me...<br />It seems you've interpreted shan and e as moral and amoral, rather than moral and immoral. This makes sense as an idea, but I'm not sure it captures either the way the words were used in Classical Chinese (though my reading of texts from that time is very limited); or is necessarily the way morality has to be positioned. <br />I think the shanxing and exing distinction usually looks pretty symmetrical. Mengzi sees someone doing something good, and he says, that guy's expressing his natural character. Xunzi sees the same guy and says, that guy was trained to be good. Mengzi sees someone doing bad, and he says, she's doing what she's been conditioned to do. Xunzi sees the same woman, and he says, she's expressing her natural character.<br />In particular, the problem with thinking of morality as a psychological or cultural *addition* that can be bolted on through a process of Xunzi-like training seems to... overintellectualise Xunzi, perhaps? Because I don't recall him ever talking much about giving people their own morality. I don't even think he spends much time talking about the Dao, which would probably be the early Chinese way of expressing this idea (I know you're not really trying to critique or parse these writers; I mean that the Xunzi position doesn't seem to be about taking an abstract outside thing, "morality," and bolting it on; it seems to be about the concrete process of training habits.) If either of them approach the idea of morality as an abstract, it's Mengzi, who imagines that it can be found through introspection. <br />And so... and so... I dunno! And so I now want to go and read Mengzi and Xunzi, which is always a good thing, so thank you for the prompt. Maybe one day I'll manage to develop a coherent idea on this symmetry/asymmetry thing, but I won't hold my breath.chinaphilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14572591745611690731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-54150350648175381592022-09-26T12:10:53.504-07:002022-09-26T12:10:53.504-07:00Thanks for the continuing comments, folks!
Vaughn...Thanks for the continuing comments, folks!<br /><br />Vaughn: I agree, absolutely, that Mengzi wouldn't say people have to *act* according to those inclinations. Whether the sprouts can be killed is less clear. In 6A8, he seems to be supposing that the sprouts continually reassert themselves, and in 2A6 he says that everyone has a heart that is not unfeeling toward others.<br /><br />Arnold: Yes, that's a reasonable interpretation.<br /><br />Matt: I confess I have no expertise on COVID.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-53523707084369051852022-09-22T11:32:32.616-07:002022-09-22T11:32:32.616-07:00https://iep.utm.edu/xunzi/#:~:text=Heaven%20was%20...https://iep.utm.edu/xunzi/#:~:text=Heaven%20was%20sometimes,good%20for%20people.<br /><br />About the Way; Is this beyond good bad...<br />..."Heaven was sometimes... but in Xunzi’s view Heaven is much like Nature: it acts as it always does, neither helping the good or harming the bad. The Way is not the Way because Heaven approves of it, it is the Way because it is good for people."Arnoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02580641063222662041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-15472209651245393742022-09-21T21:29:38.442-07:002022-09-21T21:29:38.442-07:00At least based on the account in Ordinary Men, mos...At least based on the account in Ordinary Men, most of the men from Police Battalion 101 did experience at least some disgust/discomfort at their own actions (though it's not clear how much was moral disgust vs the physically disgusting nature of their task), at least on their first time, in Jozefow (see ch. 7), though apparently they adapted by as early as their second time, at Lomazy. The Mengzian hypothesis doesn't have to predict that this disgust would be enough to actually change their actions. It also doesn't have to predict that it would persist - Mengzi thinks it's possible for the sprouts to be killed. Vaughn Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09377202183176634126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-167769999283282522022-09-21T11:31:30.659-07:002022-09-21T11:31:30.659-07:00Thanks for the comments, everyone!
Shimon: Yes -...Thanks for the comments, everyone!<br /><br />Shimon: Yes -- more influenced by Mengzi than Xunzi! Please feel free to email me for the paper. I have also made the final manuscript version available for free on my academic website here:<br />http://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/HeartRevolt.htm<br /><br />Howard: It's hard to operationalize! When I'm thinking about this particular question, I prefer to start at least with cases on which I suspect there would be widespread consensus, to avoid questions about whether it's really an act of evil or not. Your two-part questionnaire actually somewhat resembles a study my student Nika Chegenizadeh did for her honors thesis last year. Check it out here:<br />https://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2022/07/political-conservatives-and-political.html<br /><br />Arnold: I agree that we are not constrained by our evolutionary heritage but can rise beyond it with the right kind of training and self-shaping -- as Xunzi thinks is necessary.<br /><br />Anon: Yes, that's still another plausible view -- born good but then corrupted. Closer to Rousseau, perhaps!<br /><br />David: Thanks for the suggestion! I'll keep an eye open for when it's released.<br /><br />Paul: I hope and believe (but don't fully completely believe) that you are right about that.Eric Schwitzgebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274774112862434865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-70362593414515458612022-09-21T09:15:42.235-07:002022-09-21T09:15:42.235-07:00I think it does. At least hope it must. If not, th...I think it does. At least hope it must. If not, there is something incomplete about the owner of the heart. Or something broken.Paul D. Van Pelthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13508874039164282696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-460411016895496062022-09-20T17:53:08.549-07:002022-09-20T17:53:08.549-07:00Check out this forthcoming excellent book by Ditte...Check out this forthcoming excellent book by Ditte Marie Munch-Juricic. <br /><br />https://www.amazon.com/Perpetrator-Disgust-Moral-Limits-Feelings/dp/019761051X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=95UXQZS1L4U0&keywords=ditte+marie+munch-jurisic&qid=1663721345&s=books&sprefix=ditte+marie+munch-jurisic%2Cstripbooks%2C188&sr=1-1DAVID LIVINGSTONE SMITHhttps://davidlivingstonesmith.substack.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-59067378938771547122022-09-20T15:21:44.772-07:002022-09-20T15:21:44.772-07:00Reflection on their inclinations isn't enough ...Reflection on their inclinations isn't enough because inclinations are malleable. If they are not recognizing the humanity of those they are involved with and not extricating themselves from their morally repugnant ignorance, their hearts will never speak to the humanity or worth of the victims or the wrongness of their deeds. Or put another way, if disregard has been inculcated into them, there is no hope for their possessing goodness in their hearts (although it would emerge if they were to emerge from their fragmented darkened perspective.) I think human beings are born good and the 20th Century has shown there is nearly no limit to the corruption that a human being can undergo in life by way of social pressures, ideologies, and so on, because there is no limit to his capacity for disregard and unfortunate condition of being born ignorant of many thingsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-12900728216076671282022-09-20T12:46:32.022-07:002022-09-20T12:46:32.022-07:00So a baby is born influenced by heredity and envir...So a baby is born influenced by heredity and environment...<br />...some could call this occurrence: another tension in the cosmos-universe-... <br /><br />Beings' taught balance in all things from birth...<br />... also see life more as a object of balance...<br /><br />Mind body being struggle for balance in front of here now...<br />...Babies learn their own balance: starting with gravity of one's feet on the ground...<br /><br />Good and bad may be a evolutionary dead end for us humans...<br />...can we teach ourselves to allow our evolution beyond good/bad...Arnoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02580641063222662041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-24758401954079917112022-09-20T10:08:24.626-07:002022-09-20T10:08:24.626-07:00So here's what you do to answer your dilemma: ...So here's what you do to answer your dilemma: <br /><br />Make a survey part experimental philosophy, part social psychology:<br /><br />Part 1 asks questions or a question inquiring whether people are evil or good<br />Why? It's just like asking citizens whether the economy is good; you get lots of local answers which add up to a complete answer, factoring out the noise<br /><br />Part 2 combines authoritarianism and psychopathy (the Dark Triad in general) which picks up natural and historically caused indifference to the suffering of others<br /><br />Together you have a picture in any time and place whether man is good or evilHowardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-80181281152467426742022-09-20T09:28:41.961-07:002022-09-20T09:28:41.961-07:00If you define good and evil according to a prompte...If you define good and evil according to a prompted innate response, is there room for both, as Freud and Fromm in his own way would divine?<br />Your philosophy leans toward behavioral measures and I'm not sure how circumstances affect your assessment. I would say, and this is a paraphrase of a quote from Julius Caesar by Shakespeare that good deeds die at the grave.<br />Evil gets more press.<br />How would you operationalize both good and bad tendencies?Howardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26951738.post-53398986304003788442022-09-20T09:20:22.667-07:002022-09-20T09:20:22.667-07:00Here's what the Three Character Classic says a...Here's what the Three Character Classic says about this:<br /><br />人之初 (rén zhī chū) People at birth,<br />性本善 (xìng běn shàn) Are naturally good (kind-hearted).<br />性相近 (xìng xiāng jìn) Their natures are similar,<br />習相遠 (xí xiāng yuǎn) (But) their habits make them different (from each other).<br /><br />...<br /><br />Also, none of the two links to the published article work for me, in any browser... can I please get a PDF?<br />Thanks,<br />—ShimonShimonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10917665706436644377noreply@blogger.com